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#48035 - 05/29/10 02:49 PM Inconsistencies.
FastLearner Offline
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Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 15
Why is that is in level 4, motives are introducted as pattterns? And not motives? It bothers me how the word "motive" is never said, but sequence is used frequently. I know that they are the same concept, but why?

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#48036 - 05/29/10 03:43 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: FastLearner]
Susan Offline
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Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 2168
Loc: Texas
Why what? Why are they the same concept, why are you bothered, or why are they introduced the way they are? I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Also, motive and sequence are not the same thing, but you could say they are both patterns.

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#48039 - 05/29/10 10:28 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: Susan]
Jason Offline
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The definition of motive is one of those things that gets argued quite a bit in music appreciation and history classes.

A "pattern" is more concrete. Motives can make a pattern, but not all motives do, and not all patterns consist of motives. (For example, many patterns are chordal - think Jardins sous la Pluie - but one wouldn't say that the figuration in Jardins is motivic, it's just an arpeggiated chord.)

I don't think patterns and motives are the same thing, either. The opening 16th notes figure of Beethoven Op. 22 is a motive, but I wouldn't call it a pattern.

Or another example, the middle movement of Beethoven Op. 27#1 is fairly obviously a pattern, but I wouldn't say it's built on a motive - just a bunch of triads.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


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#48040 - 05/29/10 10:34 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: Jason]
earleeharris Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 7
Loc: northwest ohio
But motives and sequences are referred to frequently in 3B.

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#48047 - 05/30/10 12:18 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: FastLearner]
GailS Offline
Mainstay Member

Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 618
Originally Posted By: FastLearner
Why is that is in level 4, motives are introducted as pattterns? And not motives? It bothers me how the word "motive" is never said, but sequence is used frequently. I know that they are the same concept, but why?


FastLearner, this site may help. You can look up just about any musical term and get a pretty clear explanation. More elaboration then you find in a lesson book where explanations are expected to be to be further explained by the piano teacher.

Multimedia Music Dictionary (Virginia Tech)

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#48053 - 05/30/10 01:59 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: GailS]
FastLearner Offline
Contributing Member

Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 15
I understand what motives and sequences are Susan. I'm just wondering why in 3B "motive" is used, in 4 "pattern" is used. If 4 is designed to be more advanced, why use the simpler term "pattern?" And Jason, what are you trying to say? That some motives aren't patterns?

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#48056 - 05/30/10 04:09 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: FastLearner]
GailS Offline
Mainstay Member

Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 618
(In the case you may be confusing me with Susan, I'll go ahead with a reply.)

If you are speaking of the labelled second theme of Lyne's Sonatina in C (book 4) where it does follow some rules of motive I don't consider that a motive. It's more a pattern followed by sequences up until the transition. Like Jason pointed out thought, probably a lot of people out there to disagree with me. grin

It's not that the term pattern is being substituted for the term motive, they are two different things.

and that is why I thought fuller definitions might help you with your own point of view.


Edited by GailS (05/30/10 11:45 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#48057 - 05/30/10 05:14 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: FastLearner]
Jason Offline
Star Member

Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: FastLearner
And Jason, what are you trying to say? That some motives aren't patterns?


Yes. Beethoven's motives are often good examples. They aren't used as patterns. (Pattern implies repetition, but not all motives are subject to immediate repetition.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


www.pianoped.com

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#48058 - 05/30/10 06:16 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: Jason]
Lisa Kalmar Offline
Star Member

Registered: 04/10/00
Posts: 4277
Loc: KC
Ah, summer at pt.com. Some things never change! laugh

This is kind of confusing me, because I'm still not sure where Fast Learner is coming from and what the question really is yet, i.e. if people are really addressing the Real Issue which I strongly doubt. But I do think that this is *exactly* like the bio-identical hormone debate, in which doctors who do not prescribe them claim they are no big deal and not any different than Premarin while those who believe in them claim they are natural when they really aren't. Satchels of gold, if you will.... crazy

The method is in the teacher, not the course.


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#48062 - 05/30/10 09:45 PM Re: Inconsistencies. [Re: Lisa Kalmar]
FastLearner Offline
Contributing Member

Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 15
Wow am I getting confused! GailS- It's not just Lyne's Sonatina, " Nickelodeon Piano" uses the term pattern. Is a pattern not a motive? I think the real question is what IS a motive exactly, and how do motives differ from patterns? I personally believe them being the same term, but your arguments have changed my opinion.

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