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#22291 - 02/26/03 02:28 PM Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Eric Offline
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Loc: New York, NY
In the opening theme, and throughout the piece, there are appogiaturas, yet I've often heard these played as grace notes. Which is right?

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#22292 - 02/27/03 06:06 AM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Bontempo Offline
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Which edition do you have, Eric? I think my partition and the partitions I saw always had the ornaments as grace notes. Should check it later this evening.

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#22293 - 02/27/03 04:01 PM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Jalapeņa Offline
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When preparing to teach that piece to Piano Kid, I looked at several different versions (edited by Faber, Hinson, Palmer, & Magrath) & found that you can play the ornaments either way.

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#22294 - 02/27/03 04:37 PM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Eric Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Jalapeņa:
When preparing to teach that piece to Piano Kid, I looked at several different versions (edited by Faber, Hinson, Palmer, & Magrath) & found that you can play the ornaments either way.


But what was Beethoven's way?!?!?

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#22295 - 02/27/03 04:46 PM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Jalapeņa Offline
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Ask Beethoven, because apparently nobody else knows for sure. ;\)

You'll have to excuse me, but I think it's high time we pianists quite sweating bullets about authentic performance practices. :rolleyes: Yes, we should study & be as "informed" as possible; but beyond that, we shouldn't worry. Let Beethoven roll over in his grave. Perform the music the way you feel it should go. Enjoy the music! \:\)

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#22296 - 03/01/03 07:08 AM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Eric Offline
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I tend to agree with Jala that being fussy over supposedly "authentic" performance practices, especially concerning ornaments, is superfluous to the substantive musical issues in a piece. However, in this case, it's such a HUGE difference, as it affects the opening musical motif in a major way.

I personally prefer the sound of the grace note in this instance, but I think it's just because that's how I'm used to hearing it. When I first saw an edition that had realized the opening as an appogiatura, I thought it was strange. However, the ornament, not having the little line going through the note, actually is an appogiatura, so why is it in this one instance acceptable to do it incorrectly?

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#22297 - 03/01/03 03:57 PM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Piano lady Offline
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Registered: 08/19/01
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I think you just play whatever way sounds best.

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#22298 - 03/03/03 06:27 AM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Jalapeņa Offline
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Registered: 02/20/03
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Loc: New Mexico
"Neither Haydn, Mozart nor Beethoven left any systematic instructions for the performance of ornaments... Although many treatises discussed ornaments and gave instructions for their performance, there was not--and is not now--complete agreement regarding either notation or performance. Since the second half of the 18th century was a time of transition, some aspects of practice can only be deduced from the musical settings of individual ornaments. Indeed, the very function of being ornamental precludes adherence to a rigorous, unambiguous system. The aesthetic basis of ornamentation requires of the performer a degree of spontaneity and nuance whose subtleties would be at best difficult, if not impossible, to notate and whose expressiveness in performance might well be lost if the notes were frozen into a rigid rhythmization. The signs used by composers to indicate ornaments were an incomplete form of shorthand, and most written-out realizations are at best only schematic. Neither signs nor realizations necessarily indicate the number or speed of the oscillations in trills, the trill termination, the precise rhythmic placement of ornaments shown as small notes, the internal rhythmic arrangement of turns, and countless other details. For all these reasons, textbook examples of ornament realization are necessarily incomplete and abstract."

Source: Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music by Sandra Rosenblum. Indiana University Press.

[ 03-03-2003: Message edited by: Jalapeņa ]

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#22299 - 03/03/03 06:41 AM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Jalapeņa Offline
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Registered: 02/20/03
Posts: 1143
Loc: New Mexico
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
I personally prefer the sound of the grace note in this instance, but I think it's just because that's how I'm used to hearing it. When I first saw an edition that had realized the opening as an appogiatura, I thought it was strange. However, the ornament, not having the little line going through the note, actually is an appogiatura, so why is it in this one instance acceptable to do it incorrectly?


From what I've read, some folks don't think the Sonatina in G was composed by Beethoven.

Also, Beethoven apparently left no clear guidelines regarding the execution of ornaments (see previous post, where I quote from Sandra Rosenblum's book on performance practices).

For what it's worth, I was taught to play the ornament before the beat, as a grace note; & that's the way it's performed on the Magrath Masterworks Classics CD. Since most of the editions I consulted indicated that the ornament could be performed either way, I chose to stick to the way I've always heard it played. It just sounds better that way to me, maybe because that's the way I'm used to hearing it.

Hope this helps, Eric.

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#22300 - 03/03/03 09:33 AM Re: Beethoven: Sonatina in G
Eric Offline
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Registered: 04/04/00
Posts: 2325
Loc: New York, NY
Thank you, Jala! That was very helpful!

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