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#22218 - 08/21/02 05:58 PM Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
I would like to start on an Etude - probably in January. What would be a good first? I'm working on the Pathetique Sonata (first movement) if that's a good level indicator...

Also, any good recordings of all the etudes? Does Rubinstein have one - I've not been able to locate one?

MM

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#22219 - 08/21/02 09:18 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Eric Offline
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Registered: 04/04/00
Posts: 2325
Loc: New York, NY
Miss Misti,

I'd be very suspicious of a generalized statement regarding the level of difficulty in the Chopin Etudes. While some might seem to be more manageable than others, it really depends on the individual strengths of the pianist.

For example, I find the C minor (Op.25, No. 12) to be one of the most accessible etudes, but this is probably due to how well it fits my hand and that arpeggios have always come easy to me. Same goes for the Octave Etude (Op. 25, No. 10). But other people would find these two etudes to be among the most difficult. Likewise, some people find the Thirds Etude (Op. 25, No. 6) to be manageable, where it confounds me. Thirds are my weakness! (One among many! ;\) )

That being said, it's safe to say that the F minor (Op. 10 No. 9) and the Aeolian Harp Op. 25 are good starters for most people. If your forte is voicing/phrasing, then the absolutely painfully gorgeous Eb minor (Op. 10, No. 6) might be right up your alley! Like all the etudes, this is as much a study for the heart as it is for the mind and the fingers.

I have Pollini's recording of the complete etudes and I love his subtle performances; He allows the music to speak for itself (which it does very well, thank you) without any excessive interpretive stuff slopped on top. Highly recommended!

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Eric ]

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#22220 - 08/21/02 09:29 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
arsnova02 Offline
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Registered: 07/29/01
Posts: 908
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I hate them ALL. Boring, boring, boring.

Go for the Liszt Transcendentals instead. (Just JOKING. Don't try it. They might actually kill you. I'm not that brave, either...)

:p

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#22221 - 08/22/02 05:58 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jalapeņo Offline
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Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 5712
My first Chopin etude was the one in E major. I can't say that it was super easy for me to learn it, but I liked the piece so much that I kept working on it until I mastered it. I learned it many moons ago when I was a teenager, but I still love playing it.

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#22222 - 08/22/02 07:15 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jason Offline
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
We're all assuming Misti means the Chopin Etudes, even though she never specified in her original post.

If you're just looking for etudes in general - you might check out some of the Heller studies. They're actually quite good. As for Chopin, consider Op. 10#3 or #12 or Op. 25#1 or #2.

And don't listen to Ars, she seems to have suffered a mild head injury during her move. They're not boring! :P
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


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#22223 - 08/22/02 07:49 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
Thanks for all of the suggestions - I keep meaning to ask my teacher, but end up forgetting. I'll take more suggestions though!

Sorry Dr. Jason - I meant the Chopin etudes. I assumed that 'etudes' would be understood because of the topic "Chopin Etudes."

Op. 10 #6 is very beautiful (I love pieces like that) but it's in Eb minor... Everything I'm working on now is in a minor key and I'm looking for something kind of bright - or at least major. I like the Winter Wind Etude, but it's in a minor key, too.

Ars - I haven't heard the Liszt pieces, I'll have to see if I can find any of them on the internet, but I already love the Chopin etudes - sorry. ;\)

MM

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Miss Misti ]

[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22224 - 08/22/02 11:00 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jalapeņo Offline
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Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 5712
I second what Jason said about the Heller etudes. I think you'd enjoy doing those in addition to the beloved Chopin etudes. The Liszt etudes may not be suitable for everyone. I seem to remember Eric telling me that the Liszt etudes require a large hand span, which I don't have. For that reason, I never bothered to buy a book & familiarize myself with them. If there are any Liszt etudes that I would be able to play, then please let me know! Maybe I could find individual sheets so as not to have to buy the book???

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#22225 - 08/22/02 11:10 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
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Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
Hello Misty, being such a fan of these Etudes I just can't help to put in my coin... \:\) What is said in the first reply, by Eric, sums it all. I agree with him on the most widely accepted as the better etudes to start with... I just want to add a few remarks. The op.25 no.2 is also, in my opinion, one that seems to fit most people, as is the Black key Etude. In fact, I started with op.10 no.9, then successively the op.25 no.1, no.2 and the Black Keys. And afterwards the op.25 no.12, although I never could truely master it... \:\(
The "winter wind" is the chromatic A minor, op.10 no.2?? I find that to be a "mine field"!!
Eric, you find the Octave Study fitting to your hand?? How many fingers do you have, anyway?? \:D
Ah, and about recordings, I ADORE the Pollini recording... and just a week ago, I discovered the Cortot original recording in CD (I have to check the date........1933!!) and was absolutely DAZZLED by his incredible performance, totally special-effects-free (with the occasional split notes, op.10 no.1, for one, was recorded in a bad day, I feel! ;\) ), and a lot alike Pollini's interpretation... I wonder if that's just coincidence!
Well, in Portugal the Chopin Etudes are tremendously fashionable right now, and (almost) every student can sing (almost) all of them by memory! But I always remember this sentence, said by a pianist contemporary of Chopin (Sorry, but I don't remember who, it's in the little book inside Pollini's recording):"Players with crooked fingers will straighten them by playing these Etudes, while others should be put on their guard against them...". This is HEAVY ARTILLERY, OK? :p

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#22226 - 08/22/02 12:03 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jason Offline
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
A small correction, the "Winter Wind" etude is Op. 25#11, not Op. 10#2. Both are very difficult, though!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


www.pianoped.com

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#22227 - 08/22/02 02:06 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
Does the Pollini recording have all of the etudes on it? It seems to be the PT.com favorite. Once I decide on one, I'll let y'all know how it goes.

MM

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#22228 - 08/22/02 02:40 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jason Offline
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The Pollini recording has all of Op. 10 and Op. 25. It does not contain the three posthumous etudes.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


www.pianoped.com

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#22229 - 08/22/02 06:49 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Arlene Steffen Offline
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Registered: 06/20/00
Posts: 2972
Loc: Fresno, CA USA
Ack! Are you guys nuts? I hate the Pollini recording! Blech! Blech! Blech! Almost turned me off the etudes entirely.

Idil Biret is quite nice (good cheap Naxos recording at that) and I always enjoy Murray Perahia's Chopin but I haven't heard his etudes.

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#22230 - 08/22/02 07:51 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Jason Offline
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Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2019
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Heh...I don't care for Idil Beret much. \:\)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)


www.pianoped.com

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#22231 - 08/22/02 07:53 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22232 - 08/23/02 11:04 AM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
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Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
Strange thing about that "Winter wind" denomination, had never heard of it. And knowing that it's referring to op. 25 no.11, I firmly think that op. 10 no.2 sounds more like a "winter wind", chilly and fast, than op. 25 no. 11! Oh, what the heck!
Yes, no point arguing more about recordings... I'm surprised no one mentions the Ashkenazy recording, it's very well-known though I personally don't like it a lot.
But we could spend some time discussing the editions you find interesting... I personally think that Cortot's edition, for the advice it offers and for the profound work it embodies, is the best!!! You can see by his recording that this man had a true linkage with Chopin...
\:\)

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#22233 - 08/27/02 02:34 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22234 - 08/28/02 02:06 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
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Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
Just a silly question, out of the topic area: What do you consider to be a "fun" duet piece?

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#22235 - 08/28/02 06:06 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
At this point, any duet. I love duets, and wish I could do more. At this point, though, I want to do something fun. (Duet or not.) I've not been able to play anything non-classical for over a year now, and I've had about 12 pieces to continually work on, and several pieces for competitions not knowing which ones we were actually going to do. Plus, they were (are) very challenging pieces, and were really starting to stress me out. Yesterday I was relieved of a couple of them, after we finally decided what I would be playing in the competition.

I'm just ready for some fun, jazzy, rag type of music. Even just one that wasn't so serious.

MM

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#22236 - 10/16/02 09:57 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
Okay, how crazy am I for starting the Revolutionary - Op. 10 No. 12? It is my absolute favorite! It's 6 pages long, and I'm thinking about trying to work on a page a week. I started the first page on Saturday, and can pretty much play the first piece. (Not bad for only working on it 4 days...) Was that a totatally awful choice, even though it's my favorite and I'm willing to work very hard on it?

MM

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#22237 - 10/18/02 03:52 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
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Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Misti:
Yeah! My teacher said that in January I might could start on an etude! I didn't mean for it to slip out this way, but I also asked if I might be able to work on a 'fun' duet piece - and she said yes! Now, to survive the MTNA competition so I can play some fun music!

MM

Looks like the Start of the Etudes-Adventure was anticipated... has your teacher decided to reward you and allowed you to start earlier or are you doing this, let's say, "on your own"?

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#22238 - 10/18/02 05:18 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22239 - 10/19/02 12:26 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Lilla Offline
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Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 1573
Loc: Chicago
Oh, my. You need a heart-to-heart with your teacher! Performing well should not be met with punishment.

. . .but, if I win and go on to the next level, I'll have to keep the pieces even longer![/B][/QUOTE]

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#22240 - 10/19/02 01:24 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22241 - 10/19/02 03:59 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
Resident Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Misti:
For right now, I'm doing it on my own. I would like to surprise her right before Christmas break with being able to play all 6 pages. I'm being careful with the rhythm and notes, so hopefully I won't learn too much wrong.

(May I vent a little?)
I've been playing the same pieces for over a year now, because of a competition... I have never been allowed to pick a piece - only choose 'this one or this one' and haven't had anything fun since I started last August. I don't even not want to play classical - I love classical, but would love some fun classical - Gerhswin, Joplin, etc.

This past year has been one competition or another, and I've had to stay focused on only a few pieces. Now I don't want to practice, and the things I do want to practice are some Jazzed Up! pieces, Joplin arrangements, and the etude.

Would you, as teachers, be upset if your student went ahead and tried to work on something, or would you be pleasantly surprised? Am I doing the wrong thing?

MM - who will be glad when this competition is over so I can have time to work on new music - but, if I win and go on to the next level, I'll have to keep the pieces even longer!


Dear MissMisty

I think you should know what your teacher will think of this since you know her much better than us all. So reflect carefully on this, OK?
I, personally (and I have to be honest) would not be happy if a student of mine did something like that without talking with me. I'm not referring to your case, just thinking in abstract and answering your question. I think that when a student wants a change in repertoire, s/he has to talk with the teacher. It's not a question of the student being able or not to play the piece- it's a question of TIMING. And teachers can feel somewhat "betrayed" if the student breaks the linkage without saying a word. I know of extreme cases where this leaded to lesson-termination. You've planned on starting Chopin Etudes with your teacher, so I can see you're a serious advanced student.

Let me tell you my personal experience: I had the same piano teacher in all 8 eight years of preliminary musical education in Portugal. In the last 2 years, I met another student at my level (from a different teacher) who started playing some Etudes at that time. I was playing Moskowsky Etudes at that time (God bless Moskowsky but Chopin's Etudes are one of a kind so you can see my frustration...), and started to feel very eager to play Chopin Etudes. I immediately discussed this with my teacher, who said "While you could play some of the Etudes correctly at this stage, this is not the correct timing in your formation as a pianist, as Moskowsky is still not tackled. I want you to be able to play Chopin's Etudes FLAWLESSLY and you have a lot of time to get there". Guess what? When I and my fellow-student went to college (and had the same Russian teacher there), he went back to Czerny op. 740 and I only played Etudes from Chopin and Rachmaninoff!

So talk this honestly with your teacher and don't forget that the best surprise for any teacher is great improvement and serious work from one week to the other and not necessarily unexpected new material... but I would love to hear from Jalapeņo, Jason or Lisa about this! eheheheheh

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#22242 - 11/05/02 03:09 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: MM ]

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#22243 - 11/05/02 03:47 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
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Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Misti:
Okay -

I was showing my teacher the new music I got (with Alfred's buy $25 or more of Masterworks Editions get other Mastwerowkrs Editions of equal or lesser value free, I couldn't turn it down!) today, and included the Etude book in with the pile. We looked through it, and although there were some etudes that were easier than the Op. 10 # 12, she agreed to let me try it, with the understanding that if it was too difficult technically, that she would let me know, and we would put it away for a while. ANYWAY - I'm happy! I get to start working on the etude I wanted, AND she and I might get to do a duet from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite! (Plus my competition pieces went VERY well today - I can't wait until Saturday is over!)

MM \:D



Hello Miss Misty,

I feel very happy for you indeed! Not only you get the Chopin Etude as you also got the fun-piece you were looking for - and a 4-hand (or is it 2 pianos????) piece is more in the way of ensemble music, which is always very motivating!
Good luck with the Revolutionary and keep us posted on problems you encounter and about the progress you will surely make on the piece, OK?
Ciao!

Bontempo

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#22244 - 11/06/02 12:13 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
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Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
Bontempo:

It is a one piano 4 hand piece. I can't decide... The Russian Dance, or the March? Hmm....

MM

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#22245 - 11/06/02 02:26 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
Bontempo Offline
Resident Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 353
Loc: Belgium/Portugal
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Misti:
Bontempo:

It is a one piano 4 hand piece. I can't decide... The Russian Dance, or the March? Hmm....

MM



Is this an invitation for me to give my worthless opinion? \:D
For my money, the Russian Dance. It's so charming... Why don't you try both??? (not enough time?)

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#22246 - 11/06/02 07:03 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
Resident Member

Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
Yes, you may give your 'worthless opinion.' ;\) I would love to do both, but if time will only allow me to do one I'll probably go with the Russian. She's not doing a Christmas recital, so it would just be something a little fun for us to do together.

MM

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#22247 - 12/11/02 12:01 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
RAK Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Iowa
I just completed the Op. 25, No. 7 in C-Sharp Minor. The runs were a bit challenging, but well worth the work. The piece is absolutely lovely.

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#22248 - 01/14/03 12:54 PM Re: Chopin Etudes
MM Offline
Resident Member

Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 348
After reading all of my posts in this section, I have decided that I probably shouldn't have said all that I did, and have edited out the majority of the posts. If you don't mind, any quotes that you used from me, please delete them.

Thank you,
MM

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